Dating zildjian cymbals

A. ZILDJIAN CYMBAL STAMP CHRONOLOGY DATE TIMELINE

All Avedis Zildjian cymbals have their name stamped in its bronze. But, we have 2 problems. 1. There is no official track record of the stamps used by Zildjian. And 2. The proces of stamping wasn't very accurate and the imprint varies. So, it is difficult to exactly determine the period that certain stamps were used. We know Avedis Zildjian started production in 1929 in the Quincy, Massachusetts USA.

Old cymbals. In the thirties Zildjian's most popular cymbal measured between 8 and 14 inch, weight paperthin, easily bendable. Drummers also used small but heavy brass cymbals. In the fourties Bebop drummers began to use larger rides and sizzle cymbals. Ride size ranged up to 30 inch and 16 inch Hihats are known from this era. Cymbal weight stepped up with popular music. In the fifties and later little inkstamps on odd shaped models say SWISH, PANG or FLANGED HI-HATS, MEDIUM RIDE etc. Some stories tell about drumshops stamping cymbals according client preferences.

The first fifty years of A. Zildjian can be divided in 6 types as seen below. This is also known as the 'pre-ink' period, so before mid 1970s when Zildjian started the silkscreen ink stamps on the bottom with the open ink-stamp logo.

Introduction

Introduction to Cymbal Stamp Timelines

This website offers information about the age of cymbals based on the “stamps” found on them. Cymbals are engraved with a trademark by the maker. These stamps are the only reliable way to determine the age of the cymbals. The engraved stamp cannot be erased because it is in the metal. Most other identifying information (stickers, silk screens, ink or grease pencil) fade away and disappear over time.

The date of a cymbal is important because different periods in the evolution of the modern drum set are marked by distinct acoustic potentials. These differences are available in the cymbals associated with the different eras of the drum set (grandstand, jazz, bop, big band, rock, etc.)

The old Zildjian cymbal foundry was in Constantinople, dating back to the 17th century. The earliest Zildjian cymbals with complete stamps (logo, name, trademark) use the letter “K” for Kerope Zildjian, and are marked with Constantinople as the city of origin. Click here to see a timeline of K Constantinople cymbals .

Constantinople was re-named Istanbul by the Government of Turkey in 1930. There is some argumentation about when the K Zildjian cymbals begin to be stamped with “Istanbul” and it is likely that many consumers wanted cymbals from Constantinople long after the city had changed its name. Today, K Zildjian cymbals from the Istanbul period are perhaps the most sought after vintage cymbals in the world. Click here to see a timeline of K Istanbul cymbals .

The Avedis Zildjian company started making K Zildjian cymbals in a factory in Medutic, Canada in 1977. They brought a few cymbalsmiths from Istanbul to Canada following the shutdown of the Turkish foundry. Later the operation was moved to USA. Read more about the K Zildjian cymbals from Canada and later USA.

Avedis Zildjian came to the United States and started making cymbals under the label “A Zildjian” in 1929 in Quincy, Massachusetts. These were contemporaneous with the K Zildjians from Turkey, but the styles diverge greatly. Click here to see a timeline of A Zildjian cymbals .

Before the Swish and Trash cymbals, there was the imported cymbals of China. Made from the same bronze formula as Turkish cymbals (B20), the Chinese used a completely different method to produce their cymbals. I became fascinated with the story of the oldest Chinese cymbals in vintage collections in the United States, and the Chinese Cymbal Timeline is the result. Click here to see a timeline of early Chinese cymbals imported to the US.

Vintage Italian cymbals were produced by a collective: the “Union of Italian Cymbal Manufacturers” (Italian: Unione Fabbricanti Italiani Piatti) or UFIP, under many different brands. Click here to see a timeline of Italian cymbals from the UFIP group.

History

The Zildjian Family (of Turkey) represents the longest running cymbal-producing lineage outside of China. Their lineage dates back to the 1600s. K erope Zildjian ran the factory that produced the K Zildjian line of cymbals, in Constantinople (Istanbul).

In 1929, Avedis Zildjian III, moved part of the family cymbal business to Massachusetts. He took a suggestion from Jo Jones, drummer for Count Basie, and mounted cymbals on a pole creating the “hi-hat.” Another idea from Gene Kruppa, drummer for Benny Goodman, led to a big cymbal with a lot of ping called a “ride.” (Wall Street Journal, 5/31/96, p. B1)

Other identifying features

Other cymbal identifiers may be lost over time, such as stickers, ink labels, grease pencil writing, and signatures under the bell.

Old Stamp I (1930s-1945)

Old Stamp IIa (1945-1949)

The phrase ‘K Zildjian’ was shrunk compared to the preceding stamp.

Also now the font for the word “Istanbul” is as tall as the star and moon. Stamp I used a smaller font which was shorter than the star and moon.

Old Stamp IIb (1949-1950)

Old Stamp IIIa (1950-53)

Old Stamp IIIb (1953-1956)

Old Stamp IVa (1957-58)

Intermediate Stamp (1959-1966)

11 comments

I have a set of 14″ K Zildjian & Cie Hi Hat/Orchestra cymbals with the G stamp on the edge so I’ve spent a great deal of time researching the timeline. I found that when Turkey got it’s independence in 1923 they changed the name to Istanbul which was what they (the Turks) had always called it. The rest of the world and Zildjian continued to use Constantinople until early 1930 when by law everything made in Istanbul had to say Made In Istanbul and the rest of the world followed suit when the Turkish Post Office would no longer deliver mail addressed to Constantinople. These hats are amazing by the way and in great condition in every way. These would’ve been imported by Gretsch between 1926 when Gretsch became the sole importer & 1930 and can be seen in old catalogs. I’ve heard that these are highly regarded by orchestra musicians and that that is where most of them reside. They are the “Holy Grail”.

Oops, forgot to add that they are K Zildjian & Cie Constantinople Hats.

Scott, your description of the sequence of events associated with the name-change from “Constantinople” to “Istanbul” sounds to be consistent with what I’ve read. Is there any chance you could send me a picture of your 1926-1930 era stamp? I’ve also been trying to compile a timeline of those stamps, though it is much more difficult: http://www. robscott. net/cymbals/?page_id=157

p. s. I have also heard, more than once, that in fact the K factory continued to use the “Constantinople” stamp waay into the 1930s. Which would mean that any stamp with Istanbul is presumed 1940 or later. I would like to see some proof, however, such as an advertisement found within a dated publication.

Thanks to the info on your website i think i have a pair of 30′s-40′s 15inch hi hats, the markings are more or less identical to those shown (a little worn) my old man purchased these as a jazz player in the 40′s 50′s. Must have had a good ear they are excellent! thanks again…

Tony Brown, January 25, 2011

Regarding the “Intermediate Stamp (1959-1966)” photos:

is the shape of the K important? the right leg of the K in the 2nd picture extends below the left leg but in the first pic it doesn’t.

I’ve got one like the 2nd picture so i’m wondering….i don’t see that type of K in any other stamps on your site at all

I’d imagine that is diagnostic of a particular period

tia for the help

John, February 1, 2011

I see what you are referring to, where part of the letter K missing. It is common for the intermediate stamp to have letters that are missing parts, or letters that are completely absent.

All cymbal stamps degrade over time, so the quality of stamp varies from cymbal to cymbal over the years. With the intermediate stamp, specific letters lost components that were never regained. Thus, you can look at a given word, such as the word “zildjian” and see how all the letters were complete in early examples (circa 1959, presumably), then later the were lost (during the 1960s). The more letters and components that are missing, the later it was made.

That’s one theory by which missing and incomplete elements from the intermediate stamp could function as a diagnostic for dating specific cymbals.

There are old new stamps and new new stamps. The one you’ve got here is an old new stamp. The new new stamps have a gap between the Arabic and the English, and they date to the later part of the decade, 1972-1977.

I have an old set of K hi hats that I bought in the 1970s. Looking at this they would seem to be 1972-77. I have been told they can fetch high prices – how much might a set of 14″ be worth. I’m just curious as i had no idea they were now considered ‘rare’.

They are both 14″. One weighs 800 grammes, the other 740 grammes. They need a clean (?) but are in generally good condition – no dents, cracks or anything.

Nick, July 7, 2012

I have what appears to be a 13″ type IIA however the word ISTANBUL has two A’s instead of 1 or ISTAANBUL. What can you tell me about that?

American Custom were made 1972-1976. The drums were 9 ply shells, name badges are silver with black handwriting reading A. C.

The American Drum Manufacturing Company is a family-owned timpani manufacturer based in Denver, Colorado. Former Denver Symphony Orchestra timpanist Walter Light, who built a custom set of drums for himself, founded the company in 1950 when his colleagues began asking him to build timpani for them. [Source: wikipedia ]

Shawn Skipper, Owner-Designer-Builder Anchor Drum Company. Wilmington, North Carolina, USA

"Anchor Drums began in Fall of 2008 and has been going full-steam ever since!

Animal custom drums, UK.

" Animal official started trading in 2006. Where based in Lofthouse, Wakefield which is in Yorkshire, UK.

We manufacture our shells in house.

We are having new badges designed at the minute which will include some form of identification, although where not sure what form that will take at yet.

Our very early drums had a rectangle band with Yellow writing on, the ones we have used for the last year or so have Black text. " [Source: Carl, Animal Custom Drums, email 12/2/2009]

Apollo

Apollo was a brand name of Kawaii for guitar production. [Source: Wikipedia ] Unsure whether this extends to drums.

The History of Human Interactions with Caribou

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Eve Grayson, a Reindeer herder at the Cairngorm Herd, feeds the deer on December 23, 2013 in Aviemore, Scotland. Jeff J Mitchell / Getty Images News / Getty Images

Reindeer ( Rangifer tarandus . also called caribou in North America), were among the last animals domesticated by humans, and some scholars argue that they still aren't fully tame. There are currently

2.5 million domesticated reindeer located in nine countries, and occupying some 100,000 people to tend them: that is approximately 50% of the total population of reindeer in the world.

A recent study on reindeer mtDNA (Røed et al. 2008) identified at least two separate and apparently independent reindeer domestication events, in eastern Russia and Fenno-Scandia (Norway, Sweden and Finland). Substantial interbreeding of wild and domestic animals in the past obscures DNA differentiation, but even so, the data continue to support at least two or three independent domestication events, probably within the past two or three thousand years.

Social differences between reindeer populations show that domestic reindeer have an earlier breeding season, are smaller and have a less-strong urge to migrate than their wild relatives. While there are multiple subspecies ( R. t. tarandus and R. t. fennicus ), they are not necessarily divided between domestic and wild animals, the result of continued interbreeding between domesticated and wild animals, and the likelihood that domestication took place relatively recently.

Reindeer Hunting Techniques

Reindeer live in cold climates, and they feed mostly on grass and lichen. During the fall season, their bodies are fat and strong, and their fur is quite thick. The prime time for hunting reindeer, then, would be in the fall, when hunters could collect the best meat, strongest bones and sinews, and thickest fur, to help their families survive the long winters.

Archaeological evidence of ancient human predation on reindeer include amulets, rock art and effigies, reindeer bone and antler and hunting corrals. Reindeer bone has been recovered from the French sites of Combe Grenal and Vergisson, suggesting that reindeer were hunted at least as long ago as 45,000 years.

Reindeer Hunting Facilities

Two large mass hunting facilities. similar in design to desert kites. have been recorded in the Varanger peninsula of far northern Norway. These consist of a circular enclosure or pit with a pair of rock lines leading outward in a V-shape arrangement. Hunters would drive the animals into the wide end of the V and then down into the corral, where the reindeer would be slaughtered en masse or kept for a period of time.

Rock art panels in the Alta fjord of northern Norway depict such corrals with reindeer and hunters, substantiating the interpretation of the Varanger kites as hunting corrals. Pitfall systems are believed by scholars to have been used beginning in the late Mesolithic (ca. 7000 BP), and the Alta fjord rock art depictions date to approximately the same time,

4700–4200 cal BC.

Mass kills driving reindeer into a lake along two parallel fences built of stone cairns and poles have been found at four sites in southern Norway, used during the second half of the 13th century AD; and mass kills conducted this way are recorded in European history as late as the 17th century.

Reindeer Domestication

Scholars believe, for the most part, that it is unlikely that humans successfully controlled much of reindeer behavior or affected any morphological changes in reindeer until about 3000 years ago or so. It's unlikely, rather than certain, for a number of reasons, not the least because there is no archaeological site which shows evidence for the domestication of reindeer, at least as yet. If they exist, the sites would be located in the Eurasian arctic, and there has been little excavation there to date.

Genetic changes measured in Finnmark, Norway, were recently documented for 14 reindeer samples, consisting of faunal assemblages from archaeological sites dated between 3400 BC to AD 1800. A distinct haplotype shift was identified in the late medieval period, ca. 1500-1800 AD, which is interpreted as evidence of a shift to reindeer pastoralism. See Bjørnstad et al. for further information.